I'm seeing new behaviors in RC after the last upgrade I did.
When marking a message and later deleting it, the next message gets automatically marked, which isn't a good idea, as I could accidently click twice on the delete botom and get both messages erased.
Spell checker is present, but doesn't seem to work.
Except from this, things look very good.
Martin Marques wrote:
I'm seeing new behaviors in RC after the last upgrade I did.
- When marking a message and later deleting it, the next message gets
automatically marked, which isn't a good idea, as I could accidently click twice on the delete botom and get both messages erased.
This is the same behavior as Thunderbird which was the only client I had on hand to test with. I think that selecting the next message on delete is pretty standard behavior though (but please correct me if I'm wrong). I would suggest being more careful to not click twice, and if you do, simply undelete the message by moving it out of the Trash folder or if it's flagged as deleted by clicking on the little Trash icon to unflag it.
-Charles
On Mon, 15 May 2006 09:22:41 -0500, Charles McNulty charles@charlesmcnulty.com wrote:
Martin Marques wrote:
I'm seeing new behaviors in RC after the last upgrade I did.
- When marking a message and later deleting it, the next message gets
automatically marked, which isn't a good idea, as I could accidently click twice on the delete botom and get both messages erased.
This is the same behavior as Thunderbird which was the only client I had on hand to test with. I think that selecting the next message on delete is pretty standard behavior though (but please correct me if I'm wrong). I would suggest being more careful to not click twice, and if you do, simply undelete the message by moving it out of the Trash folder or if it's flagged as deleted by clicking on the little Trash icon to unflag it.
But we're talking about a web based email client. Ofcourse kmail and evolution do that, but I guess it's because it shows the contents of that marked mail.
This is not the behavior the gmail or IMP have, and I find more appropriate not leaving any marked.
Martin Marques wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2006 09:22:41 -0500, Charles McNulty charles@charlesmcnulty.com wrote:
Martin Marques wrote:
I'm seeing new behaviors in RC after the last upgrade I did.
- When marking a message and later deleting it, the next message gets
automatically marked, which isn't a good idea, as I could accidently click twice on the delete botom and get both messages erased.
This is the same behavior as Thunderbird which was the only client I had on hand to test with. I think that selecting the next message on delete is pretty standard behavior though (but please correct me if I'm wrong). I would suggest being more careful to not click twice, and if you do, simply undelete the message by moving it out of the Trash folder or if it's flagged as deleted by clicking on the little Trash icon to unflag it.
But we're talking about a web based email client. Ofcourse kmail and evolution do that, but I guess it's because it shows the contents of that marked mail.
This is not the behavior the gmail or IMP have, and I find more appropriate not leaving any marked.
But I believe Charles' argument is that this is a Web Desktop application, not just another webmail project. So it's meant to emulate a desktop app on the web. I haven't noticed it, so I can't comment, but I can say that moving the selection to the next item is what I like in Thunderbird. Perhaps this can be user definable: Move to next item on delete: Yes/No.
Brett Patterson - Roundcube Forum Admin wrote:
But I believe Charles' argument is that this is a Web Desktop application, not just another webmail project. So it's meant to emulate a desktop app on the web. I haven't noticed it, so I can't comment, but I can say that moving the selection to the next item is what I like in Thunderbird. Perhaps this can be user definable: Move to next item on delete: Yes/No.
Thank you Brett, this is exactly what I was going to say. I don't really agree with an option for what to do when you delete from the "list" view though. The alternative would be to just have the focus disappear which would just appear to be a bug. I just can't think of any rational reason why someone might want the focus to disappear upon deleting a message (and I don't consider the possibility of accidental clicks to be very convincing). I do think an option might be useful for whether to go to the next or previous message though. This is a pretty common option I think.
-Charles
Martin Marques wrote:
I'm seeing new behaviors in RC after the last upgrade I did.
When marking a message and later deleting it, the next message gets automatically marked, which isn't a good idea, as I could accidently click twice on the delete botom and get both messages erased.
Spell checker is present, but doesn't seem to work.
The spell checker does work for me. I had to checkout a complete new working copy as well... anyway, spell checking is not complete yet, consider it as a proof-of-concept.
Except from this, things look very good.
On Mon, 15 May 2006, Thomas Bruederli wrote:
Martin Marques wrote:
I'm seeing new behaviors in RC after the last upgrade I did.
When marking a message and later deleting it, the next message gets automatically marked, which isn't a good idea, as I could accidently click twice on the delete botom and get both messages erased.
Spell checker is present, but doesn't seem to work.
The spell checker does work for me. I had to checkout a complete new working copy as well... anyway, spell checking is not complete yet, consider it as a proof-of-concept.
It could have something to do with the fact that I was using the spanish dictionary?
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Lic. Martín Marqués | SELECT 'mmarques' || Centro de Telemática | '@' || 'unl.edu.ar'; Universidad Nacional | DBA, Programador, del Litoral | Administrador
On Mon, 15 May 2006 14:31:45 -0400, Brett Patterson - Roundcube Forum Admin brett@roundcubeforum.net wrote:
But I believe Charles' argument is that this is a Web Desktop application, not just another webmail project. So it's meant to emulate a desktop app on the web. I haven't noticed it, so I can't comment, but I can say that moving the selection to the next item is what I like in Thunderbird. Perhaps this can be user definable: Move to next item on delete: Yes/No.
I still don't agree with this behavior. It looks totally unnatural. But I thought maybe it's just MHO, so I starting asking mail users (and a par of programmers that work with me) about the behavior of the mail client, and I have to say that I couldn't find one that would think the behavior is OK. One user said that "the selection is an action that the user should do, not the aplication".
Also, the selection marker is moving backwards! :-( So I don't get the next message, but the previous one
So here is my thought about it:
- There has to be an option to how to treat selection after an action has been executed over the message. The option should, not only be configurable in which direction to move (forward or backward), but also in if it should select or not another message. You can leave the default behavior to be "move to the next message", and let user decide what is best for him/her.
I have to say that without this option, I'm going to have a very hard time trying to impose RC on our network.
P.D.: Is RC moving to become "Thunderbird inside Firefox"? :-)
On Thu, 18 May 2006 15:51:11 -0300, Martin Marques martin@bugs.unl.edu.ar wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2006 14:31:45 -0400, Brett Patterson - Roundcube Forum Admin brett@roundcubeforum.net wrote:
But I believe Charles' argument is that this is a Web Desktop application, not just another webmail project. So it's meant to emulate a desktop app on the web. I haven't noticed it, so I can't comment, but I can say that moving the selection to the next item is what I like in Thunderbird. Perhaps this can be user definable: Move to next item on delete: Yes/No.
I still don't agree with this behavior. It looks totally unnatural. But I thought maybe it's just MHO, so I starting asking mail users (and a par of programmers that work with me) about the behavior of the mail client, and I have to say that I couldn't find one that would think the behavior is OK. One user said that "the selection is an action that the user should do, not the aplication".
If I'm following along, I think the complaint is that now when you highlight a message and hit the 'Delete' button, the message moves to the trash, and the highlight goes to the next message, correct? I noticed this happening recently, and I really like it. If I have a bunch of things to delete that I've read, it's easy, 'pop, pop, pop'. As this mirroring the behavior in Thunderbird, it's also the behavior in Outlook. Trying to define Roundcube as a Web client or a fat client is not really fair anymore; this client *can do* much more than other Web clients. So, why not take advantage of it?
Now I"m sure it can be made an option that the user can toggle, hey, I don't like the 'Return receipt' option showing up, and will likely work on an patch to make that an option, but for now I think the functionality is something that a desktop user will be at home with. If it seems strange and new to a Web mail user, well, then good, it's supposed to surprise them!
I can see that 'Personal settings' tab growing a bit...
P
Also, the selection marker is moving backwards! :-( So I don't get the next message, but the previous one
So here is my thought about it:
- There has to be an option to how to treat selection after an action has
been executed over the message. The option should, not only be configurable in which direction to move (forward or backward), but also in if it should select or not another message. You can leave the default behavior to be "move to the next message", and let user decide what is best for him/her.
I have to say that without this option, I'm going to have a very hard time trying to impose RC on our network.
P.D.: Is RC moving to become "Thunderbird inside Firefox"? :-)
--
Lic. Martín Marqués | SELECT 'mmarques' || Centro de Telemática | '@' || 'unl.edu.ar'; Universidad Nacional | DBA, Programador, del Litoral | Administrador
On Thu, 18 May 2006 14:07:47 -0500, phil phil@cryer.us wrote:
If I'm following along, I think the complaint is that now when you highlight a message and hit the 'Delete' button, the message moves to the trash, and the highlight goes to the next message, correct? I noticed this happening recently, and I really like it. If I have a bunch of things to delete that I've read, it's easy, 'pop, pop, pop'. As this
You can always select them all using the shift botton to make multiple selections :-)
mirroring the behavior in Thunderbird, it's also the behavior in Outlook. Trying to define Roundcube as a Web client or a fat client is not really fair anymore; this client *can do* much more than other Web clients. So, why not take advantage of it?
As I said, I talked with "normal" users (not geeks) and nobody liked it. My worries are that I will have a hard time making the network users happy with RC. If it were configurable, than it could be changed easily, and I would get fewer complaints.
Now I"m sure it can be made an option that the user can toggle, hey, I don't like the 'Return receipt' option showing up, and will likely work on an patch to make that an option, but for now I think the functionality is something that a desktop user will be at home with. If it seems strange and new to a Web mail user, well, then good, it's supposed to surprise them!
I can see that 'Personal settings' tab growing a bit...
Maybe it's time to rethink it prefs. Group them in catagories maybe.
Martin Marques wrote:
would think the behavior is OK. One user said that "the selection is an action that the user should do, not the aplication".
That's a fine paradigm for selecting text, it's very unhelpful when trying to select "objects" such as e-mail messages. This is probably why every application in existence works this way.
Also, the selection marker is moving backwards! :-( So I don't get the next message, but the previous one
When you delete a message it should go to the message below it. Whether this is the "next" or "previous" message depends on your sort order. If you are not getting this, it's a bug and I'd love to get further details.
- There has to be an option to how to treat selection after an action
has been executed over the message. The option should, not only be configurable in which direction to move (forward or backward), but also in if it should select or not another message. You can leave the default behavior to be "move to the next message", and let user decide what is best for him/her.
You still haven't given any possible reason for this except as a preventative measure for people clicking the delete button twice. I'm not going to implement this unless I'm convinced that it could ever actually add to the user's experience. For an example of making an argument to convince me to implement a configuration option see the discussion about the "unread" status of deleted messages where I was successfully convinced to make an option that preserves the unread status of deleted messages. In other words I'm not being dogmatic, and I can be convinced but you're not even trying.
P.D.: Is RC moving to become "Thunderbird inside Firefox"? :-)
In short, Yes! That's the whole point!
On Thu, 18 May 2006 16:17:59 -0300, Martin Marques martin@bugs.unl.edu.ar wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2006 14:07:47 -0500, phil phil@cryer.us wrote:
If I'm following along, I think the complaint is that now when you highlight a message and hit the 'Delete' button, the message moves to
the
trash, and the highlight goes to the next message, correct? I noticed this happening recently, and I really like it. If I have a bunch of things to delete that I've read, it's easy, 'pop, pop, pop'. As this
You can always select them all using the shift botton to make multiple selections :-)
mirroring the behavior in Thunderbird, it's also the behavior in
Outlook.
Trying to define Roundcube as a Web client or a fat client is not really fair anymore; this client *can do* much more than other Web clients.
So,
why not take advantage of it?
As I said, I talked with "normal" users (not geeks) and nobody liked it. My worries are that I will have a hard time making the network users happy with RC. If it were configurable, than it could be changed easily, and I would get fewer complaints.
That's cool, but why didn't they like it? Again, this is how it works in Thunderbird and Outlook; do they not like the feature in those clients either? I'm just curious as to what they expected, or want after they hit 'delete'. Come back and not highlight anything like we had it?
Thanks
P
Now I"m sure it can be made an option that the user can toggle, hey, I don't like the 'Return receipt' option showing up, and will likely work
on
an patch to make that an option, but for now I think the functionality
is
something that a desktop user will be at home with. If it seems strange and new to a Web mail user, well, then good, it's supposed to surprise them!
I can see that 'Personal settings' tab growing a bit...
Maybe it's time to rethink it prefs. Group them in catagories maybe.
--
Lic. Martín Marqués | SELECT 'mmarques' || Centro de Telemática | '@' || 'unl.edu.ar'; Universidad Nacional | DBA, Programador, del Litoral | Administrador
Martin Marques wrote:
You can always select them all using the shift botton to make multiple selections :-)
So your argument for why we should offer the option to lose one's place in the message list is that the feature that it breaks has a work-around? I'm not exactly becoming more convinced.
mirroring the behavior in Thunderbird, it's also the behavior in Outlook. Trying to define Roundcube as a Web client or a fat client is not really fair anymore; this client *can do* much more than other Web clients. So, why not take advantage of it?
As I said, I talked with "normal" users (not geeks) and nobody liked it. My worries are that I will have a hard time making the network users happy with RC. If it were configurable, than it could be changed easily, and I would get fewer complaints.
I don't understand *why* they don't like it. The only reason you've offered is that they might accidentally click twice. Perhaps you could convince your users to think of RC more like Thunderbird and less like Gmail. It's a paradigm shift, and your users' complaints are common at first, but I believe that in the long-run people appreciate the power and flexibility that comes with maintaining ones place in lists (as well as other "application-like" features in RC).
-Charles
On Thu, 18 May 2006 14:23:05 -0500, Charles McNulty charles@charlesmcnulty.com wrote:
Martin Marques wrote:
- There has to be an option to how to treat selection after an action
has been executed over the message. The option should, not only be configurable in which direction to move (forward or backward), but also in if it should select or not another message. You can leave the default behavior to be "move to the next message", and let user decide what is best for him/her.
You still haven't given any possible reason for this except as a preventative measure for people clicking the delete button twice. I'm not going to implement this unless I'm convinced that it could ever actually add to the user's experience.
Why should it add the the users experience. It should add to confortness of the user.
I personally don't see other web clients (don't come with the web desktop please) doing this (gmail, yahoo!, hotmail, IMP, squirrelmail, etc.). Yes I know Thunderbird, Outlook, kmail, and pine do it, but in the first tree cases it's because the actually do something with the mail, besides selecting it (they show the contents of it on another frame), while the fourth (pine) has to do it because it's the only way of showing from where you are moving (pine doesn't use mouse as it works on a terminal so you move the selection with keyboard arrows). At the end, why are you selecting another message? Just to be able to delete one after the other faster? I just don't get why this is so necesary.
But if everybody is happy with it, what can I do.
Anyway, you aren't fully complying to the selection that the fat-clients do, as when you go back to the mail folder, or after login, no mail is selected.
status of deleted messages. In other words I'm not being dogmatic, and I can be convinced but you're not even trying.
I just want it in the TODO. When I get some free time out, I'll try to get you a patch for it.
Martin Marques wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2006 14:23:05 -0500, Charles McNulty charles@charlesmcnulty.com wrote:
Martin Marques wrote:
- There has to be an option to how to treat selection after an action
has been executed over the message. The option should, not only be configurable in which direction to move (forward or backward), but also in if it should select or not another message. You can leave the default behavior to be "move to the next message", and let user decide what is best for him/her.
You still haven't given any possible reason for this except as a preventative measure for people clicking the delete button twice. I'm not going to implement this unless I'm convinced that it could ever actually add to the user's experience.
Why should it add the the users experience. It should add to confortness of the user.
I personally don't see other web clients (don't come with the web desktop please) doing this (gmail, yahoo!, hotmail, IMP, squirrelmail, etc.).
You can't say that. Roundcube is a Web 2.0 application, NOT a page-by-page webmail script. If YOU keep thinking of it like that, then Roundcube is NOT for you, and YOU need to find a different webmail client.
Yes I know Thunderbird, Outlook, kmail, and pine do it, but in the first tree cases it's because the actually do something with the mail, besides selecting it (they show the contents of it on another frame), while the fourth (pine) has to do it because it's the only way of showing from where you are moving (pine doesn't use mouse as it works on a terminal so you move the selection with keyboard arrows). At the end, why are you selecting another message? Just to be able to delete one after the other faster? I just don't get why this is so necesary.
Thunderbird does the following: In message view list (without the "preview pane") the selected item is deleted, and the next message (down in the list, regardless of listing, it's down.... not up) and the previous item is either marked as deleted (IMAP) or moved to the trash folder (POP3).
But if everybody is happy with it, what can I do.
Anyway, you aren't fully complying to the selection that the fat-clients do, as when you go back to the mail folder, or after login, no mail is selected.
Okay, this can be added. When going back from message view, the message you viewed (if still available) or the next message is selected. That's an okay claim.
status of deleted messages. In other words I'm not being dogmatic, and I can be convinced but you're not even trying.
I just want it in the TODO. When I get some free time out, I'll try to get you a patch for it.
I think it is *YOU* that is not thinking properly here. This is not to
be thought of as a web-page, but a web application. With that, you
can't ever compare it to SquirrelMail and the like. GMail is just the
tip of the iceburg when it comes to Web 2.0 and they've conformed.
Roundcube is **not** like gMail, nor will it ever be.
Roundcube is to be an application within the Web browser framework. No it's not just supposed to be Thunderbird, but just generally it's an application within the bounds of a web-browser. No different than a word-processor is within an operating system. This is what Web 2.0 is about. Getting people away from thinking of the web as the usual page-by-page design, and creating more interactive, and useful **applications**, not pages.
On Thu, 18 May 2006 17:18:44 -0300, Martin Marques martin@bugs.unl.edu.ar wrote:
I personally don't see other web clients (don't come with the web desktop please) doing this (gmail, yahoo!, hotmail, IMP, squirrelmail, etc.). Yes I know Thunderbird, Outlook, kmail, and pine do it, but in the first tree cases it's because the actually do something with the mail, besides selecting it (they show the contents of it on another frame), while the fourth (pine) has to do it because it's the only way of showing from where you are moving (pine doesn't use mouse as it works on a terminal so you move the selection with keyboard arrows). At the end, why are you selecting another message? Just to be able to delete one after the other faster? I just don't get why this is so necesary.
Hi!
I've been purposefully trying not to weigh in on this one, but I felt I needed to add a clarification here.
Yahoo webmail's new system, which is currently Mail beta does exactly this behaviour. When a selected message is deleted using the delete key, the selection moves to the next message according to the sort order.
Further, Microsoft's Windows Live Mail beta also added this functionality in exactly the same way.
For GMail, the entire intent was never to delete mail. In fact, it never had a direct Delete button until a month or two ago. You had to go, 'move this message to the trash' folder.
I personally have a Hotmail account that gets tons of mailing lists, and this functionality hugely reduced the time it takes to sort mail. However, its the combination of a visible preview of the message AND the delete selection sliding. Click delete, look at the next message, click delete... Its of less value for Roundcube now without preview, but that will come.
I'm very confident this is the right approach -- we're in great company with desktop apps AND next generation web apps like Yahoo and Windows Live Mail. But, that's also the beauty of an open source app. Hack your local copy to meet your needs if you can't agree. We're all done it many times.
Andrew
-
Andrew Fladmark -
Brett Patterson - Roundcube Forum Admin -
Charles McNulty -
Martin Marques -
phil -
Phil Cryer
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Thomas Bruederli