Arne,
uh, I must admit that this standard (?) with three sig dashes (without WSP) for top-posted replies is totally new to me, thanks for the input. Is this documented somewhere (RFCs)...? And what's the sense of and reason for it?
My default setting is indeed top-posting, because most people I'm in touch with, are unfortunately not familiar with inline quoting. The problem is, that, depending on the person I'm replying to, I do not always use top-posting. In those cases I'm moving the the sig to the bottom of the mail.
This would lead to a sig with three dashes at the bottom, so I would have to remove one of them manually, whenever I'm moving a sig to the bottom. Not very convenient...
So I think it's better to include a two-dashes-separator in the sig (as I had it before) and always use this one, no matter if top or bottom. Fortunately, RC doesn't touch this, when being part of the sig.
But as we speak, I'd like to emphasize again my proposal to have an option in the addressbook, in which way I want to reply to this particular person.
Cheers,
Michael Heydekamp Co-Admin freexp.de Düsseldorf/Germany
Am 06.06.2013 01:27, schrieb Arne Berglund:
The three dashes is correct for top-posted replies, and should only appear when sig is inserted above the quote. If the sig is below the quote, 0.9.x and earlier then inserts two dashes with WSP.
I don't currently have a git version running, so I can't compare the behavior to the production versions.
This reply is top-posted from 0.9.1.
Arne Berglund System Administrator, Internet Services Lane Education Service District Eugene, OR ____________
On 2013-06-05 15:51, Michael Heydekamp wrote:
I used to include the sig dashes "-- " in all o my my signatures, but as I realized today, Roundcube will add them anyway (if not existent). So I removed them in all signatures of all of my identities.
This leads to the following behaviour:
Composing a new message: All OK.
Replying to to a message: Roundcube creates THREE sig dashes instead of
two ("---"), and without the mandatory WSP at the end of the string.
Strange, uh...?
Cheers,
Roundcube Development discussion mailing list dev@lists.roundcube.net http://lists.roundcube.net/mailman/listinfo/dev
Using the two-dash separator when top posting runs the risk of many clients (Thunderbird as a notable example) not displaying any of the message below the separator.
The three-dash separator solution was the result of a lengthy discussion several versions ago when the top-post option was implemented. It has worked perfectly for sometime now, and I and my organization (which is full of top-posters) would complain loudly if it were eliminated.
Arne Berglund System Administrator, Internet Services Lane Education Service District Eugene, OR ____________
On 2013-06-06 11:45, Michael Heydekamp wrote:
Arne,
uh, I must admit that this standard (?) with three sig dashes (without WSP) for top-posted replies is totally new to me, thanks for the input. Is this documented somewhere (RFCs)...? And what's the sense of and reason for it?
My default setting is indeed top-posting, because most people I'm in touch with, are unfortunately not familiar with inline quoting. The problem is, that, depending on the person I'm replying to, I do not always use top-posting. In those cases I'm moving the the sig to the bottom of the mail.
This would lead to a sig with three dashes at the bottom, so I would have to remove one of them manually, whenever I'm moving a sig to the bottom. Not very convenient...
So I think it's better to include a two-dashes-separator in the sig (as I had it before) and always use this one, no matter if top or bottom. Fortunately, RC doesn't touch this, when being part of the sig.
But as we speak, I'd like to emphasize again my proposal to have an option in the addressbook, in which way I want to reply to this particular person.
Cheers,
Michael Heydekamp Co-Admin freexp.de Düsseldorf/Germany
Am 06.06.2013 01:27, schrieb Arne Berglund:
The three dashes is correct for top-posted replies, and should only appear when sig is inserted above the quote. If the sig is below the quote, 0.9.x and earlier then inserts two dashes with WSP.
I don't currently have a git version running, so I can't compare the behavior to the production versions.
This reply is top-posted from 0.9.1.
Arne Berglund System Administrator, Internet Services Lane Education Service District Eugene, OR ____________
On 2013-06-05 15:51, Michael Heydekamp wrote:
I used to include the sig dashes "-- " in all o my my signatures, but as I realized today, Roundcube will add them anyway (if not existent). So I removed them in all signatures of all of my identities.
This leads to the following behaviour:
Composing a new message: All OK.
Replying to to a message: Roundcube creates THREE sig dashes
instead of two ("---"), and without the mandatory WSP at the end of the string.
Strange, uh...?
Cheers,
Roundcube Development discussion mailing list dev@lists.roundcube.net http://lists.roundcube.net/mailman/listinfo/dev
Roundcube Development discussion mailing list dev@lists.roundcube.net http://lists.roundcube.net/mailman/listinfo/dev
Am 06.06.2013 20:53, schrieb Arne Berglund:
Using the two-dash separator when top posting runs the risk of many clients (Thunderbird as a notable example) not displaying any of the message below the separator.
The three-dash separator solution was the result of a lengthy discussion several versions ago when the top-post option was implemented. It has worked perfectly for sometime now, and I and my organization (which is full of top-posters) would complain loudly if it were eliminated.
Hmm, not sure if I understand you correctly:
Does Thunderbird not offer an option to NOT remove anything below the standard sig dashes ("-- ")? I'm not using Thunderbird, so I really don't know that. But hard to believe that it does have no such option.
But if it does have such option, why not simply enabling it...?
Anyway, am I seeing it correct that the three-dash sig separator is not a standard then, but just a sort of, hmm, workaround for DAUs (please don't ask what a DAU is, too hard to explain ;-))?
Cheers,
Michael Heydekamp Co-Admin freexp.de Düsseldorf/Germany
On 2013-06-06 12:10, Michael Heydekamp wrote:
Hmm, not sure if I understand you correctly:
Does Thunderbird not offer an option to NOT remove anything below the standard sig dashes ("-- ")? I'm not using Thunderbird, so I really don't know that. But hard to believe that it does have no such option.
But if it does have such option, why not simply enabling it...?
Anyway, am I seeing it correct that the three-dash sig separator is not a standard then, but just a sort of, hmm, workaround for DAUs (please don't ask what a DAU is, too hard to explain ;-))?
Cheers,
Indeed, I don't believe the three-dashes is a standard. But then, I couldn't say myself whether two-dash-WSP is a documented standard (RFC) either. Perhaps it is, but if so it is used so inconsistently in the real world that I wouldn't consider it to bind me if I were a developer. Encourage proper us? Yes. Try to force it? Probably futile.
Unlike Roundcube (which has a user-pref whether to strip signatures or not), Thunderbird does not appear to have an option to disable that behavior. (Or rather, I've not been able to find it, nor have more experienced Thunderbird users with whom I work.) Nor is it feasible to ask anyone to whom my users might send to change their email client prefs.
2013.06.06 22:33, Arne Berglund wrote:
Unlike Roundcube (which has a user-pref whether to strip signatures or not), Thunderbird does not appear to have an option to disable that behavior. (Or rather, I've not been able to find it, nor have more experienced Thunderbird users with whom I work.) Nor is it feasible to ask anyone to whom my users might send to change their email client prefs.
A little clarification: When you are reading a message, Thunderbird displays all of it, but anything starting with the '-- ' line will be presented in grey by default. Only when you are replying to a message, that "signature" is removed.
Rimas
Am 07.06.2013 07:20, schrieb Rimas Kudelis:
2013.06.06 22:33, Arne Berglund wrote:
Unlike Roundcube (which has a user-pref whether to strip signatures or not), Thunderbird does not appear to have an option to disable that behavior. (Or rather, I've not been able to find it, nor have more experienced Thunderbird users with whom I work.) Nor is it feasible to ask anyone to whom my users might send to change their email client prefs.
A little clarification: When you are reading a message, Thunderbird displays all of it, but anything starting with the '-- ' line will be presented in grey by default. Only when you are replying to a message, that "signature" is removed.
So in case of top posting with the signature and the '-- ' separator inserted after the new text instead of at the end, the signature and all the following text would get removed, which is definitely unwanted. Therefore imho it makes sense to use '---' or something else instead of the well known '-- '.
Maybe a start and an end separator would be useful to allow to cut the signature out on reply...
Manfred
Am 07.06.2013 07:20, schrieb Rimas Kudelis:
When you are reading a message, Thunderbird displays all of it, but anything starting with the '-- ' line will be presented in grey by default. Only when you are replying to a message, that "signature" is removed.
And that means: *All* older text ist removed.
One small hint for friends of top postings:
I thing for top-postings it is better not to begin each quote-line with ">", as its standard for classic inline-quote.
Am 09.06.2013 15:40, schrieb Martin Wodrich:
One small hint for friends of top postings:
I thing for top-postings it is better not to begin each quote-line with ">", as its standard for classic inline-quote
bullshit - it has the same result in a *only* top-posting thread
bla
bla
bla
bla
hwo comes that this does for anybody but you?
Am 09.06.2013 15:55, schrieb Reindl Harald:
Am 09.06.2013 15:40, schrieb Martin Wodrich:
One small hint for friends of top postings:
I thing for top-postings it is better not to begin each quote-line with ">", as its standard for classic inline-quote
bullshit - it has the same result in a *only* top-posting thread
bla
bla
bla
bla
hwo comes that this does for anybody but you?
I think, you don't understand me.
On 06/06/2013 08:45 PM, Michael Heydekamp wrote:
uh, I must admit that this standard (?) with three sig dashes (without WSP) for top-posted replies is totally new to me, thanks for the input. Is this documented somewhere (RFCs)...? And what's the sense of and reason for it?
No standard, but everybody knows top-posting is evil. I don't want to receive messages from top-posters with standard separator. We (Roundcube) will not help to produce "broken" messages.
My default setting is indeed top-posting, because most people I'm in touch with, are unfortunately not familiar with inline quoting. The problem is,
If they are not familiar with "standard" quoting, why do you care about separator in mail sent to them?
that, depending on the person I'm replying to, I do not always use top-posting. In those cases I'm moving the the sig to the bottom of the mail.
Aha. That I can understand, but this is another story (feature request).
Am 07.06.2013 08:32, schrieb A.L.E.C:
On 06/06/2013 08:45 PM, Michael Heydekamp wrote:
uh, I must admit that this standard (?) with three sig dashes (without WSP) for top-posted replies is totally new to me, thanks for the input. Is this documented somewhere (RFCs)...? And what's the sense of and reason for it?
No standard, but everybody knows top-posting is evil.
Uh! I honestly beg to differ, but I'd wish you were right. Of course top-posting is evil, but I seriously doubt that everybody knows it. Outlook has unfortunately managed to make top posting a worldwide "standard" through the last decades, especially in business environments.
So these folks are using this way of quoting also in private e-mail. Nowadays most people have no clue anymore of the good old inline quoting. Not everybody has started his "mail career" in the mailbox networks of the eighties.
I don't want to receive messages from top-posters with standard separator. We (Roundcube) will not help to produce "broken" messages.
Well, (fortunately) Roundcube does in fact help, as it doesn't touch a standard separator if being included in the sig itself already (even when top-posting). ;-) And please don't change that.
Plus, that a top posting with standard separator is not necessarily broken. It may even be deliberate.
My default setting is indeed top-posting, because most people I'm in touch with, are unfortunately not familiar with inline quoting. The problem is,
If they are not familiar with "standard" quoting, why do you care about separator in mail sent to them?
What you call "standard quoting", is nowadays and in real life not a standard anymore. :-( And again, I agree that it's a pity, but a fact.
that, depending on the person I'm replying to, I do not always use top-posting. In those cases I'm moving the the sig to the bottom of the mail.
Aha. That I can understand, but this is another story (feature request).
Right. I already mentioned this already here and there in this list, that it would be most convenient to have an addressbook-specific option how to reply to this particular user.
But even then the way of quoting may sometimes change from message to message during a discussion with the same user...
Cheers,
Michael Heydekamp Co-Admin freexp.de Düsseldorf/Germany
Hi,
Am 07.06.2013 20:44, schrieb Michael Heydekamp:
Am 07.06.2013 08:32, schrieb A.L.E.C:
On 06/06/2013 08:45 PM, Michael Heydekamp wrote:
uh, I must admit that this standard (?) with three sig dashes (without WSP) for top-posted replies is totally new to me, thanks for the input. Is this documented somewhere (RFCs)...? And what's the sense of and reason for it? No standard, but everybody knows top-posting is evil.
Uh! I honestly beg to differ, but I'd wish you were right. Of course top-posting is evil, but I seriously doubt that everybody knows it. Outlook has unfortunately managed to make top posting a worldwide "standard" through the last decades, especially in business environments.
So these folks are using this way of quoting also in private e-mail. Nowadays most people have no clue anymore of the good old inline quoting. Not everybody has started his "mail career" in the mailbox networks of the eighties.
I don't want to receive messages from top-posters with standard separator. We (Roundcube) will not help to produce "broken" messages.
Well, (fortunately) Roundcube does in fact help, as it doesn't touch a standard separator if being included in the sig itself already (even when top-posting). ;-) And please don't change that.
Plus, that a top posting with standard separator is not necessarily broken. It may even be deliberate.
My default setting is indeed top-posting, because most people I'm in touch with, are unfortunately not familiar with inline quoting. The problem is,
If they are not familiar with "standard" quoting, why do you care about separator in mail sent to them?
What you call "standard quoting", is nowadays and in real life not a standard anymore. :-( And again, I agree that it's a pity, but a fact.
that, depending on the person I'm replying to, I do not always use top-posting. In those cases I'm moving the the sig to the bottom of the mail.
Aha. That I can understand, but this is another story (feature request).
Right. I already mentioned this already here and there in this list, that it would be most convenient to have an addressbook-specific option how to reply to this particular user.
But even then the way of quoting may sometimes change from message to message during a discussion with the same user...
Cheers,
For me inline quoting the way it is done above does not always work with roundcube in HTML mode. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
The way I do it is:
* Press ENTER where I want to insert my answer
* Click on the blockquote icon to remove the blue vertical line for
this new line * Sometimes it does work, but often the blue line is not only removed from the new line but from a large block of text
Is there a different way to achive this?
At least I have now found a patttern when it works and when not. It does not work with preformatted text within the blockquotes like in the following example:
<blockquote><pre> Text line 1 Text line 2 etc. </pre></blockquote>
In this case it is not possible for me to insert a reply after 'Text line 1'.
Regards Manfred
Am 18.06.2013 09:55, schrieb Manfred Usselmann:
For me inline quoting the way it is done above does not always work with roundcube in HTML mode. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
The way I do it is:
Press ENTER where I want to insert my answer
Click on the blockquote icon to remove the blue vertical line for this new line
Sometimes it does work, but often the blue line is not only removed from the new line but from a large block of text
Is there a different way to achive this?
At least I have now found a patttern when it works and when not. It does not work with preformatted text within the blockquotes like in the following example:
<blockquote><pre> Text line 1 Text line 2 etc. </pre></blockquote>
It looks like this happens when replying in HTML mode to a text mode message (Use always HTML mode).
Manfred
-
A.L.E.C -
Arne Berglund -
Manfred Usselmann -
Martin Wodrich -
Michael Heydekamp
-
Reindl Harald -
Rimas Kudelis