On Wednesday 20 June 2007 16:56, jim@cobaltblue.gr wrote:

I would like to point out that the proper name (according to many international organisations UN etc) for "Macedonia" is FYROM. I believe that that name is proper as the other term is politically and emotionally charged and will offend a many number of Greek and Greek-descended users.

We've had that before. From what I understand, what the people from Macedonia like to call their language is just that, and that to me is the only justification needed. This is not a UN publication nor is it a politcal correctness contest, and if I were to make a Klingon translation, I wouldn't insist on the term "Klingon Empire" just because somebody national pride may be insulted by "Klingon". Same goes for Taiwan, Tibet, Cataluña, Kosovo and the Mars Colonies.

~Mik

We do not name the translations by their country name but by the language name. So what would be the language of FYROM? FYROMian or FYROMish?

I agree with Michael that this software is not a politcal correctness contest. What we are looking for is a label that describes the translation best so that users who speak that language will find it at the expected position in the alphabetically ordered list of translations.

~Thomas

jim@cobaltblue.gr wrote:

I would like to point out that the proper name (according to many international organisations UN etc) for "Macedonia" is FYROM. I believe that that name is proper as the other term is politically and emotionally charged and will offend a many number of Greek and Greek-descended users. I realise that this is not a political forum but I also believe that it is politically correct to use FYROM. Thanks all! Jim Deves

Dear Vassilis,

For anyone more than two countries away from what used to be Yugoslavia, this is a total non-issue. Everyone knows that there are more ethnic groups than countries all over the balkans, and oftentimes, there's more languages than ethnic groups in a region. Every language needs a name, and most of the time, the name is determined by the people that speak it, and nobody comes up and tells them "There is no such language. Call it so-and-so."

The real issue is obviously that for some reason, some Greek people are unhappy with the fact that Macedonia is independent. And this frustration, apparently, leads you to trolling around amoung open source developers to change the name of the Macedonian translation.

Now, if we could, just for the sake of our joint effort here, stop clinging to some nationalistic issue of pride, accept the political past for what it is, take the world as it presents itself at the moment, and go on developing this wonderful project, we would be serving our common cause best.

~Mik

On Wednesday 20 June 2007 21:57, Vassilis Stathopoulos wrote:

If we don't want to beat around the bush, this covers it all. There is just no "Macedonian" language and no FYROMian or FYROMish of course as you clearly pointed out.

I assume that FYROM members of the list would accept that since actually their language is mainly just Slavic dialect.

Again, it's the right of every individual to name himself anyhow he enjoys, but he must respect the international rules and decisions as well. I would much like to be called "King Vassilis the first" speaking my "Vassilanian" language but unfortunately for the time being I can only do that inside my own home (and later probably the nut house ;-)). Luckily for me, my wife, kids and parents call me by that name, including some colleagues (namely my landlord, the grocer and a car salesman that wants to sell me expensive cars).

Vassilis

And in case any of you were curious what Mozilla is doing:

http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Firefox_Trunk_Status#Macedonian_.28mk.29

Macedonian (mk)

And I concur, if Mozilla's doing it I'm sure it's ok.

On 6/20/2007, "Matt Kaatman" roundcube-dev@matt.kaatman.com wrote:

I would recommend we follow in the footsteps of a mature OSS application such as firefox. On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:57:04 +0300, Vassilis Stathopoulos wrote: I believe that the best way to describe it could be "Slavic-FYROM" or "Slavic (FYROM)" in Roundcube language list. If we don't want to beat around the bush, this covers it all. There is just no "Macedonian" language and no FYROMian or FYROMish of course as you clearly pointed out. I assume that FYROM members of the list would accept that since actually their language is mainly just Slavic dialect. Again, it's the right of every individual to name himself anyhow he enjoys, but he must respect the international rules and decisions as well. I would much like to be called "King Vassilis the first" speaking my "Vassilanian" language but unfortunately for the time being I can only do that inside my own home (and later probably the nut house ;-)). Luckily for me, my wife, kids and parents call me by that name, including some colleagues (namely my landlord, the grocer and a car salesman that wants to sell me expensive cars). Vassilis Thomas Bruederli wrote:

We do not name the translations by their country name but by the language name. So what would be the language of FYROM? FYROMian or FYROMish? I agree with Michael that this software is not a politcal correctness contest. What we are looking for is a label that describes the translation best so that users who speak that language will find it at the expected position in the alphabetically ordered list of translations. ~Thomas jim@cobaltblue.gr [1] wrote:

I would like to point out that the proper name (according to many international organisations UN etc) for "Macedonia" is FYROM. I believe that that name is proper as the other term is politically and emotionally charged and will offend a many number of Greek and Greek-descended users. I realise that this is not a political forum but I also believe that it is politically correct to use FYROM. Thanks all! Jim Deves

Links:

[1] mailto:jim@cobaltblue.gr

"To those that talk about Mozilla and the rest, I could just mention what Microsoft does, US government and so on... Who is more appropriate to decide? Mozilla or United Nations? "

I put more faith in Mozilla but now we're in a pollitical discussion. :)
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:40:59 +0300, Vassilis Stathopoulos wrote:

Michael, > The real issue is obviously that for some reason, some > Greek people are unhappy with the fact that Macedonia > is independent. And this frustration, Speaking for myself, I just want to sort things out the proper, non propagandistic, way. I don't mind at all whatever each person decides for his life but I do mind about not respecting international decisions, names, treaties. I just don't accept someone wanting to do his own when there are decisions and status on the subject. Again, I am not telling ANYONE how to call himself. That's his own issue. But it's his own issue INSIDE his country. Outside he just must learn to accept the status, just like I accept it and will accept it if it changes. Are we grown ups or not? It's as simple as that. I don't like it when someone tries to put words in my mouth. I am in no way a fanatic, nor could I care less about the name. If UN decides to change the name to Macedonia and FYROM and Greece accepts it, I'm fine with it as well. Honestly, I couldn't care less. Naming does not change the economical facts that make countries and the world move (unfortunately). Until then, I suggest to those that want to include a non existent language go and fork RC and include "Macedonian", "Klingonian" and "Vassilian" in it. If Thomas decides to include it, I'm fine by it as well. I will just delete it from my installation and I will be disappointed that people were tricked to include a non existent thing. To those that talk about Mozilla and the rest, I could just mention what Microsoft does, US government and so on... Who is more appropriate to decide? Mozilla or United Nations? It just makes no sense to me... 50.000.000 Americans use "their" instead of "they 're" and vice versa. Apparently it's ok because 50 million is A LOT, right? Let's not correct a mistake, let's make another one. Is this our idea of becoming better persons and make things right? That's all from me, I thank Thomas for his hospitality and allowing me to express my opinion. I would prefer if there are no hidden or direct flames against me like last time because again, I really don't want to continue this thread on the expense of the majority of the list members that are not interested in it. Thank you, Vassilis Michael Bueker wrote:

Dear Vassilis, For anyone more than two countries away from what used to be Yugoslavia, this is a total non-issue. Everyone knows that there are more ethnic groups than countries all over the balkans, and oftentimes, there's more languages than ethnic groups in a region. Every language needs a name, and most of the time, the name is determined by the people that speak it, and nobody comes up and tells them "There is no such language. Call it so-and-so." The real issue is obviously that for some reason, some Greek people are unhappy with the fact that Macedonia is independent. And this frustration, apparently, leads you to trolling around amoung open source developers to change the name of the Macedonian translation. Now, if we could, just for the sake of our joint effort here, stop clinging to some nationalistic issue of pride, accept the political past for what it is, take the world as it presents itself at the moment, and go on developing this wonderful project, we would be serving our common cause best. ~Mik On Wednesday 20 June 2007 21:57, Vassilis Stathopoulos wrote:

If we don't want to beat around the bush, this covers it all. There is just no "Macedonian" language and no FYROMian or FYROMish of course as you clearly pointed out. I assume that FYROM members of the list would accept that since actually their language is mainly just Slavic dialect. Again, it's the right of every individual to name himself anyhow he enjoys, but he must respect the international rules and decisions as well. I would much like to be called "King Vassilis the first" speaking my "Vassilanian" language but unfortunately for the time being I can only do that inside my own home (and later probably the nut house ;-)). Luckily for me, my wife, kids and parents call me by that name, including some colleagues (namely my landlord, the grocer and a car salesman that wants to sell me expensive cars). Vassilis